Djon, I guess I've spent time with different Hispanos than you have. Northern New Mexico doesn't really fit your racial theory, unfortunately, but if you can't or won't acknowledge the cultural differences between people of Mexican descent from the northern Rio Grande Valley, with roots in the pre-Mexican War New Mexico colony, and contemporary immigrants from Chihuahua, there's really no point in arguing with you about it. This discussion appears to have gone down Paul7's favorite rabbit hole anyway, largely because you swallowed his bait.
I suggest you do some reading about it, though...while they obviously share historical and cultural roots, treating recent Mexican immigrants and descendants of 18th-century New Mexican colonists as equivalent parts of the same population is just plain dumb.
I am certainly not going to defend Bush's record on immigration, and I don't know who calls a guest worker program 'amnesty'. The current turning a blind eye to illegals in our midst is unsustainable, and the persecution of the AZ attempt to do something about it is shameful, and IMHO about to be smacked down by the Supreme Court. Something like 25% of the AZ budget is spent on illegals.
As Milton Friedman said, you can't have both open borders and a welfare state.
Arizona doesn't spend anything like 25% on illegals.
If you're thinking about hospitals, most of that money is Federal (Medicaid).
GOP bloggers and columnists, not to mention politicians who pounced on Rick Perry for "having a heart", routinely call guest worker programs amnesty, fyi.
"Arizona state treasurer Dean Martin says his state loses between $1.3 billion and $2.5 billion each year on illegal immigrants. In addition to the fiscal costs of incarcerating and educating illegal immigrants and their families, Arizona also faces a variety of other indirect costs, says Martin, who favors Arizona's controversial new immigration law.
Arizona has higher car insurance rates, he says, because illegal immigrants who cross the border often steal cars that they use to move further into the country. Undocumented workers are also more likely to perpetrate hit-and-run accidents, he says, because they are afraid of being deported if they are caught. Not only does this add to car insurance rates, but it also stretches police resources, he says.
"Unfortunately we are the gateway for illegal immigration, and that puts a bigger strain on our economy than other states," he says."
FYI, I've never heard of a guest worker program being called amnesty.
We have expelled illegals before, although we could use a new name for it:
"He says" where is it documented (pun intended)
As a person who's family first came to the area of NM in the late 1500's.
I call myself American first, New Mexican second.
As far as cultural identification I call myself Hispanic 1st, Latino 2nd, Hispano 3rd.
I never refer to myself as Mexican...Never.
Ramon, your comments are consistent with most of those I've heard, both from recent American citizens and from people with lineages that go like yours. The more recent their citizenship, the more they continue to think about the country their family left...no surprise there.
We all know many Northern New Mexicans identify historically with Spain or Pueblo or Comanche etc. Logically the state has closer connection with Mexico in the middle and south than the north does. D'oh! That opportunity for division makes some folks happy.
Some enjoy obsessing on AZ/border and pretend ignorance about political opposition to guest worker programs, obviously part of the solution (Reagan bought the idea as CA governor and nobody thought to call that "amnesty" ).
The same personality types blame Obama for Mexican immigration, pretending border security hasn't improved since the president whose name they don't like to mention.
It's telling that there's been no response to my observation that Mexican citizens in Albuquerque seem proud to claim that identity. In my experience Americans whose parents came here from Mexico are also proud of those roots.
Name a significant public figure who thinks a guest worker program is amnesty, or retract.
I blame Obama for persecuting states who want to enforce immigration law, and for wanting to grant amnesty to people who have broken the law to get here ahead of other immigrants doing it legally.
I am all for legal immigration. BTW, anyone have an idea of what Mexico does to illegal immigrants, or those who interfere in their political process?
Mexican immigrants and the children of immigrants identify themselves as Mexicans, of course. Their historical and cultural roots to that country are fairly strong. I'm glad you're finally acknowledging that northern New Mexicans have a different historical trajectory, however...after all, the New Mexico colony was only part of an independent Republic of Mexico for twenty years, and many salient points of modern Mexicano identity - the identification with the Aztecs and the resulting attitude towards mestizaje, for instance - did not develop until decades after NM became part of the US.
As I understand it, a plurality if not a majority of New Mexicans of Hispanic descent are still the descendents of New Mexico colonists rather than recent Mexican immigrants...the low proportion of New Mexican Hispanos who describe themselves as "Mexican" on the US census is an indication of this.
dance around it all you want, ese, but you still mexicano (or mejicano). the mestisaje began almost immediately and a lot of those early settlements were peopled by genizaros and mestizos. F'n grow up.
I hear you and of course you are right on about the historical issues. But a lot of people here don't choose to identify that way, for a lot of different reasons. In some cases it's because they don't want to think about being mestizos, in other cases it's because knowing you're comanche/apache/genizaro/pueblo/etc. is different from calling yourself mexica or azteca and sometimes it seems like that's where the mexicano embrace of mestizaje begins and ends. Some who call themselves New Mexican/nuevomexicano rather than mexicano may think their ancestors were transported from Extremadura by UFO without touching Mexican soil, but not all...for some it's just about a stronger identification with their local history and roots than some distant Aztlan myth...
Ramon, why would you call yourself Mexican? When your family came here there was no Mexico.
FWIW, my grandparents came here from Puerto Rico, where they were born as Spanish citizens before the Spanish-American War. My grandfather had memories as a child of all the commotion.
My wife's father is from Spain (and lives there now), she doesn't like being called Hispanic, although that's what I think we both are.
I do despise identity politics.